108 vs 110 lobe separation

Good cam for a lower rpm street engine. Now its not shifting into 3rd and you are here. Thanks again. A cam in the 110112 LSA range provides the necessary idle lobe to appease gearhead ears with acceptable manifold vacuum to run vacuum-operated accessories. The standard bore block was then stuffed with a 4340 forged steel 4.0-inch crank and 6.125-inch rods, along with a set of flat-top, forged JE pistons. Comparison Table Between 106 Vs 110 Lobe Separation Angle. that is why people running 112 or 114 lobe centres retard the cam ,that way the exhaust event is back were it was before .this helps in exhaust valve tempatures--anyway today i talked too barry who is the owner of shadbolt cams and we talked about cam lobe centres -he considers 108 centre quite narrow and for a very narrow power band operation ,with a 112 he figures with the carbs with straight & even runs at the valves there should be no noticable loss of low end power, a 112 lobe would be a great choice for a great street strip motor -better lower torque followed with a flatter rising torque curve as well as rpm range extended 500-700 rpm -. Part Number: HRS-CL120325-08. by Mr. P. Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:36 pm, Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB Limited, General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track. The intake air control valve (IAC), which regulates idle speed, also has to work overtime and often attempts to "catch" the idle, but usually shoots high or low. It is an important note you must keep; due to the lobe separation angle, there creates an overlapping of intake valve opening time and exhaust valve closing time and vice versa. Also If you go with 112 lobe centers, you create less valve overlap which will increase your compretion. 106 LSA: There is a scale of standard cranking compression of the engine. by flat4racer17 Mon May 12, 2003 1:40 pm, Post It has been tried in the VW business earlier, but then they gave it up because of problems with too high temperatures around the exhaust valve, causing them them to break. However, these rules are not absolute. This causes the engine's street manners and tuning to become fickle. So the wider LSA introduces a broader and therefore longer torque band.. This process slows down the reaction rates of the air-fuel mixture, causing temperatures to drop and preventing the engine from overheating. 110 LSA: On the contrary, it is pretty unpleasant to inform you that the efficient compression rate decreases at 110 LSA. This is one of the many reasons why Clay Smith Cams always recommends degreeing your camshaft in using the Lobe Center Method. But, after comparing these two LSA based on a few mechanical aspects, such as maximum Torque, RPM, powerband, oil consumption, and many more, you will find the 106 LSA with better performance output. On a naturally aspirated engine, the lobe separation angle has an effect on whether the engine reaches peak torque a little earlier or later in the rpm range. Typically, narrower lobe separation develops peak torque at lower rpm and widening the separation tends to build peak torque higher in the rpm range. A wider LSA moves intake- and exhaust-valve events farther apart and creates less overlap, which hurts intake-wave tuning. 1-3 Cognitive impairment is common in both FLE and TLE and adversely impacts quality of life and psychosocial functioning. Nothing makes mouths drop like a car that sounds and looks like it can't keep it self still! Lobe separations gives lots of overlap and lobe centers just happens when the grinder decides how the peak of the lobe will arrive on a specific grind by their tooling. FWIW. While lift and duration are most often discussed when talk turns to cam timing, there is a third variable that has a decided effect on both power and personality. Cam and Lifters, Hydraulic Roller Tappet, Advertised Duration 282/288, Lift .589/.600, Chevy, Big Block, Kit. Some of the confusion on this subject comes from what the meaning of "bottom" and "top" is to the speaker, I suppose. Lucky for us, Brian Tooley Racing stepped up with a dual spring package that allowed us to safely run our 0.624-lift cam. 110 degrees on the lobe separation angles. Pinning the tail on the perfect cam can certainly be a difficult task. I have used some cut on a 110 that worked well too, but they never sounded as good as the tight ones. An RV or towing camshaft, which is considered a mild performance or an economy cam, will often have a narrower LSA, between 112 and 114 degrees. This is very critical for manifold vacuum, throttle response, emissions, and gas mileage. Tuning this cam would be slightly more difficult due to the reduced idle vacuum, but it is hard to argue with all the extra power. A wide LSA reduces valve overlap, softens the idle and improves overall drivabilityespecially on the street where performance engines benefit from 112 to 114 LSA. Has anybody experienced it/ tried it? by flat4racer17 Tue May 13, 2003 9:12 pm, Post My lift will be about .580" intake and exhaust, with about 230/236 duration with a 1.7 rocker ratio, utilizing a Jesel shaft rocker system. (LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE)cam CRANES 110921 has the intake close at 45 degrees ABDC while the wider lsa CRANES 114681 closes the valves at 50.0 ABDC . by Hoxviii Mon May 12, 2003 7:50 pm, Post i have a 4 bolt 351C, stock bore, 10.5 cr with 351C Boss heads ,boss crank and rods. I'd run it, just be sure to check valve to piston clearance, coil bind and retainer to guide boss/seal clearance. A cam 112LSA with 4 degrees advance puts the intake centerline at 108 degrees. More than any other component, the cam profile determines things like idle quality, mileage, and overall driveability. The 108 LSA offered the lowest idle vacuum of the three (down 4 inches). by ANT Thu May 15, 2003 6:44 pm, Copyright 2022, S&S Motorsports LLC, All Rights Reserved - Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB Limited. dont sound like a verry street friendly motor butany thoughts? However, it is fixable. by bug1914 Tue May 13, 2003 2:56 am, Post I've heard similar cams (only about 5*'s off) and they have a nice rumble to them. 292S-112: 292/292 - 240/240 - .495/.495 - 112* - 3400-7200. Bad idea in my view. its got a 3.73 posi and the Stock 4 speed with a very low 3.42 1st gear. I though my car would have a nice rough idle with the solid cam with a tight LSA I put in my car, its go a slight lope to it, but it pulls hard. Good luck. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. But you always have a cam card with the engine. That is why 106 LSA consumes less oil. 09 All testing was run through a set of 1 3/4-inch long-tube headers and 3-inch exhaust. Higher overlapping lets less oil fall through the oil inlet. And better gas mileage. Professionally ported & polished iron 4V head with titanium intake valves, stainless exhaust, titanium retainers & keepers & dual springs. . Tests have shown that, for a given cam profile, a tighter (smaller) lobe center will produce more average horsepower and a quicker revving engine. You can modify the lobe center a little bit but not enough to change the actual overlap of the grind. Noah knows a lot about whats happening in the car industry with the latest piloting productions thanks to his professional experience. 110 LSA: Oppositely, the cylinder pressure is comparatively lower at 110 LSA than at 106 LSA. This has been my long time understanding! It depends on the combination of engine size, head flow and head flow balance, as well as a big one, exhaust flow capabilities. It is possible to advance and retard the timing events, but the distance between the centerline of the lobes will remain constant. Also know as Lobe Separation; Lobe Center is simply the distance between the peak opening points on the Intake and Exhaust lobes. dur. It will also give you a smoother idle and probably even better gas mileage. However, finding them might be challenging if you dont have any prior knowledge. Maybe even 114. 110 LSA: The 110 LSA shows up mechanically advantageous in mechanical aspects like higher RPM, lower engine knock, moderate cylinder pressure, improved idle vacuum, and higher piston-to-valve clearance. Come join the discussion about popular models such as the Mustang, Galaxie, Falcon, Fairlane, Torino, Shelby and many more! Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. I don't know about 13 to one but I have seen 12 to one on a 350 chev in hot rod article, BUT the guy soft petals around on the street with no full throttle use and puts racing gas in at the track. Retarding the camshaft (a higher intake lobe centerline number 108 vs. 104) will generally start the power band later in the RPM range and decrease the cylinder pressure. If you compared these two cams side by side in identical engines, the first cam would actually have a slightly better idle and would produce slightly more peak power at upper RPM's. "When the low-pressure wave in the exhaust reflects into the intake, the pressure delta actually helps pull air and fuel into the cylinder. LSA is a result of valve timing events. A lower efficient compression rate leads to a higher fuel consumption rate by your engine to produce higher power. Cylinder-head flow and LSA are directly related: as a rule of thumb, the better the head flows, the wider the LSA can be. As the RPM's go up this is not as critical as the higher velocity of the air/fuel moving thru keeps it from getting contaminated. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. 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A cam card with its myriad numbers, acronyms, and abbreviations is one red-pen stroke away from a failed math test. by farmer Mon May 12, 2003 3:14 pm, Post You are using an out of date browser. But this is not the only reason. It will sound lovely I'm sure. The other thing is that you need to tune your ignition advance to maximize your performance. There are General guidelines about the effects of LSA but it should not be the deciding factor in choosing a cam. This form of short-term memory is supported by the prefrontal cortex (PFC) and is believed to rely on the ability of selectively tuned pyramidal neuron networks to persist in firing even after a to-be-remembered stimulus is removed from the environment. With a 108 degree lobe center, a cam will have a rougher idle and produce less vacuum due to more overlap. by MELWAY Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:18 pm, Post LSA is a way of summing up the relative timing of the intake-valve events (intake opening, intake closing) to the exhaust-valve events (exhaust opening, exhaust closing) in relation to each other, and it's a great approximation of how the engine will operate. by xstfudonniex Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:24 pm, Post What happens when you change ONLY. After spending 8 years in plant production engineering, Noah wanted to join Engine Addiction as a key member of all cars specific guides, reviews, repairs, suggestions, and more. by ANT Tue May 13, 2003 1:08 pm, Post also,, wider will produce a wider and more flat torque curve that doesn't fall off as abruptly up top rpms. This comparison highlights that the 106 LSA is a good performer in a few mechanical aspects than the 110 LSA. Although both wide (112-116) and narrow (102-110) lobe separation angles do have an effect on overlap, it's still possible to get a lot of overlap with very wide lobe separation angle cams. But remember, although a broader powerband has a couple of acceleration advantages, it also comes with a few drawbacks. The second cam would have a rougher idle, produce more torque and would rev quicker. I probably would have gone with 3.55 gears had I knows better.. Engine knocking generally occurs when the burning of the fuel by the engine is uneven. A good amount of idle vacuum or increased idle vacuum found at 110 LSA advances the engines efficiency. That lopey idle that is universally loved, and part of the allure of a tight LSA cam, is actually misfire caused from a combination of exhaust dilution in the intake manifold and poor cylinder filling at idle. However, the plentiful exhaust overlap (31 degrees) meant there was lots of exhaust dilution at low engine speed and high vacuum. changing just the LSA on my cam wouldnt make a bit of difference on vacuum operated items E ericnova72 More for Less Racer Joined Jan 13, 2007 22,026 Posts The same is true for intake valve closing. by jobes Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:51 pm, Post The wider lobe separation angle closes the intake valve later and reduces cylinder pressure, so that is where it's detonation resistance comes from. Only once the intake valve has closed can compression begin to build. OK, what is hydraboost, and how do you like how the cam performs??? 110 LSA: On the contrary, at 110 LSA, the engine fails to reach the maximum torque, resulting in a decrease in torque rate. Boom, you get the lobe separation angle of that engine. Also, the wider LSA contributes to chassis stability in drag racing by avoiding the delivery of a ferocious blast of power that would break tire traction. But, you may wonder knowing that a higher valve clearance rate reduces the chance of damaging the valve by the piston. (You can find an instructional video of how to do just that on our Clay Smith Cams YouTube Channel;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57gfBu8uc6k&t=1s ). If you want a lumper idle go with a cam with 108 LSA, the tigher the LSA the idle will be rougher. The custom cams we selected all featured 0.624-inch lift (both intake and exhaust) and a 232/242-degree duration split. But, you may find a lobe wider than a 120-degree angle in any car engine.But, I must let you know that those are customized car engines prepared for any special purpose, such as racing, drag racing, off-road riding, or performing stunts. Copyright 2022, S&S Motorsports LLC, All Rights Reserved - Powered by, http://www.webcamshafts.com/cam_glossary.html, http://www.newcovenant.com/speedcrafter haft/3.htm, Webcam 86A 108LC w/1.5 vs 86B 112LC w/1.3s. The final, 108-degree cam stepped power up even further, with peaks of 572 hp at 6,300 rpm and 544 lb-ft at 5,200 rpm. The engine will have weak performance in the low-end range.A low vacuum can also cause the brake pedal to be quite difficult to press. So, now you, Read More Chevy Transmission Wont Shift Into 3rd: Finding the Main CulpritContinue, While changing the oil on your boats lower unit, you may need to change the drain plug, too. That notion is completely false. The extra cubic inches will smooth out a rough idle in a 327. I bet you won't see a bit of difference. If a street car has smaller lift and duration numbers, they might run 112 or 114. Aug 20, 2006. Cam timing plays an important role not only in the power generated but also the overall character of the powerplant. 106 LSA: On the contrary, if we look at the 106 LSA, we will find it more advantageous and energy efficient than the 110 LSA engine. How To Properly Replace Ignition Coils, Chevy 350 Ignition Coil Location And Everything About Them, Heres What Causes Your Car to Bog Down When Accelerating. Kevko baffled oil pan & Milidon windage tray. The higher the compression and the higher you try and rev it, the more it will like a wider lobe center. ALL bolts are ARP. We even treated them to some chamber work before installation. But, the narrow or broad powerband choice varies from person to person. So, which is better? Supercharged and nitrous race engines typically benefit from a wider LSA because they dont require as much overlap for exhaust scavenging as does the naturally aspirated engine, continues Bolander. LSA CAM TEST-108 vs 112 vs 120 Richard Holdener 239K subscribers 168K views 2 years ago WESTECH PERFORMANCE GROUP FULL RESULTS-CHANGE ONLY LSA-LS CAM TEST. Thanks for the replies so far. A commonly held misconception is that intake/exhaust overlap contributes to lower cranking compression. Brul spun the engine over with the dyno's starters and recorded 185 psi of cranking compression. But nothing comes without a cost, and idle vacuum suffers as LSA shrinks. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. 4 Impaired episodic memory and semantic knowledge are common in TLE, although dysexecutive traits . 114LSA +4 puts the intake centerline at 110 degrees before top dead center. In the 106 LSA, the engine can reach the maximum torque, making the driving more efficient and saving energy. But it also has a lot of lobe separation. Increasing the EGR effect has a good side in that it reduces the amount of oxygen in the combustion chamber. Anybody here run a 108 LSA? Anybody do any real testing on LSA in a 3.75 stroke small block chevy?I have always used 104-106 and was thinking about trying a 108 or 110 design.I know there is a lot of variables but just a general opinion from any experts.This is for motor only no nitrous.600-640 HP engine combos.Much appreciated! kinda off topic.. but while we're on the topic of cams, duration,lift,ect has anybody heard of using high compreshion (13:1) on pump gas, by useing alot of duration? Again, these are general bits of conventional wisdom. Coupled that with the low first gear of the five speed, it ought to create some real traction problems. The 30-30 Duntov is on the high end of the duration recommendation. 106 LSA: At 106 LSA, the cylinder pressure is a bit higher. 04 Minor modifications to the factory windage tray were necessary to work with the new stroker assembly. Yeah but do the experiment on the dyno and tell me your intuition is correct. But for small-block Chevys (like the LS applications in this story), the LSA is ground into the cam. 106 LSA: The scale of efficient compression rises at 106 LSA. Hey guys, can anyone tell me how rough of a idle a cam would be with a 108 lobe separation? Is There a Sequence? Big strokers like tighter LCA but it really depends on your combo and usage, theres great OTS cams but for a custom engine a custom cam is the way to go With identical cam lobes you won't see a bit of difference. Pick the cam with the valve timing events that fit the engine best, forget about LSA, it is only a result of the events. . hydraboost is the same as a vacuum brakebooster, only the booster is replaced by a unit that does the same but under hydraulic pressure. 110 LSA: On the contrary, if you look at the powerband at 110 LSA, the powerband is comparatively broader. So, sit tight back and explore. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. 08 Additional components used to build the stroker included a set of Comp hydraulic roller lifters, ARP head studs, and a new oil pump. According to the Comp Cams catalog, "The lobe separation angle (LSA) is equal to 1/2 the angle in crankshaft degrees of rotation between the maximum exhaust valve lift and maximum intake lift.". Like one cam is 112 degree and the next is 108 the 108 cam will allow less "leakage"? Another important measurement was the torque production at 4,000 rpm and this cam checked in with 484 lb-ft of torque. No, it is not even close to the ultimate performance grind most would have picked. But, the internal processings are much more complicated. The #1 intake lobe centerline is usually between 100 108 Lobe Separation These are my motors specs 1979 - 347 Stroker 10:1 Compression Holley 670 Street Avenger or a Holley 650 (I have both) Roush 200 Cylinder Heads (minor head work) 1.6 Roller Rockers Shorty BBK Headers 373 Rear End 5 Speed Transmission Cross Gap Intake (Power Band 1500-6500) FlowMaster Dual Exhaust (of course no Cats) MSD 6Al If identical and for a given displacement the 110 will give more power. Lobe seperation cant be seperated from duration,the 2 are connected.the old duntov cam had a lot less duration than many new cams so the valve overlap was not extreme and the engine ran with a gentle lope.Increase the duration by 20* and this cam would shake a 283 out of the car at idle,but then increase the lobe seperation by 4* and the motor will have a gentle lope again. 106 LSA: So, if I talk about the powerband at 106 LSA, the powerband is narrow. Most cars use more than, Read More Does It Matter Which Ignition Coil Goes Where? True enough, the tight LSA improved power through the entire rev range, from 3,600 to 6,500 rpm, but the extra power came with a penalty in idle quality. A forum community dedicated to hot rod owners and enthusiasts. O onovakind67 Registered Joined Dec 14, 2001 6,242 Posts If two cams are identical with the exception of lobe separation angle (we'll say 108 and 114) the cam with 114LSA will make more low end power than the 108LSA cam? JavaScript is disabled. For your convenience, I am providing a comparison table to give you an overall idea about the comparison. On the cranking compression test, Brul recorded 175 psi, a 10-psi drop from the outgoing 101 cam. Valve lift will bear weight in any decision regarding LSA. Cam swaps are all the rage and for good reason. I have seen a dyno test where an engine using identical duration and lift made more peak power with a 112 LSA than a 110 LSA. Split duration/lift only helps when your intake/exhaust ratio is low on the exhaust side. 3.75" stroke= 108 LSA 4.00" stroke= 110 LSA 4.25" stroke= 112 LSA 4.50" stroke= 114 LSA I can see exactly where his theory is coming from. Now lets move to the exhaust. Before we all start suffering from separation anxiety, we need to understand what lobe separation angle actually is and then how it affects your engine. You cannot look at just the LCA without looking at other specs too. 68 Mustang, 306, AFR 185\'s, CI cam, FPA\'s, Bigs 650 DP, T5Z, 9" w/4.33's. A 232 deg duration cam with a 108 deg LCA will have the same valve overlap as a 236 deg cam with a 110 deg LCA and idle will probably be very similar. in some cases,, the average torque can equal out. It should still make close to 600hp and 600tq in my 512" stealth headed big block. Brul slid the 113-LSA cam, the widest of the test, into the engine's heart and set about putting all the pieces back in place. I personally prefer to sacrifice the small amount more power for better idle quality. A few other major and, Read More Heres What Causes Your Car to Bog Down When AcceleratingContinue, Your email address will not be published. Not a HUGE, but a significant difference between 110 and 112, but those are the trends. 2.1.3 Transponder reply modes (air-to-ground) 2.1.3.1 Transponders shall respond to Mode A interrogations in accordance with the provisions of 3.1.1.7.12.1 and to Mode C interrogations in accordance . The Wastegate works by releasing the pressure built inside, Read More What Are The Wastegate Stuck Open Symptoms?Continue, Oops! Consequently, decreased torque rate often leads to more energy consumption. The center of those 2 events is the LOBE CENTERLINE (ECL). Lobe sepsration is an advanced description for overlap.If you take a cam on a 112,and grind it on a 108,you add more overlap,the time the valves are both open.Narrower lobe centers mean more low end and midrange torque,along with a peakier powerband,and a slightly rougher idle.Tradeoffs are sensitivity to octane ratings,total timing, and air fuel ratio.A lot to swallow I know,hope this helps you. We will also custom grind any of the above profiles with a custom lobe center, for an additional $20 dollars. On a tight lobe separation, like 106-108 degrees, the engine will build torque quickly and reach its peak early. The LSA, or lobe separation angle, is ground into the cam and cannot be changed. Every spec is a road map to what the valves are doing, the most common of which are lift, duration, and lobe-separation angle (LSA)the latter needing the most explanation. A Pro Stock engine builder may prefer a wide LSA to help keep the power from breaking traction tOo early. 108: 110: 112: 114 . The takeaway is simple on the surface: A tighter LSA makes more low-end and peak torque at the expense of just a few top-end ponies. Here are the basics: higher lift values open the valves to increase airflow and longer duration keeps the valves open longer. The 402-inch LS2/LS3 hybrid stroker started out with an LS2 aluminum block. It may not display this or other websites correctly. Since we were only changing the lobe separation angle, we had to make sure every variable (air/fuel, timing, water, air, and oil temps) was identical during testing. . I do believe that stock VW seperation is 108 and 112 is used alot in turbo and midrange cams for VW's while 106 is used for the top end cams. The 402 was run with a FAST LSXR LS3 intake and matching 102mm throttle body along with stock LS3 rockers, a Holley HP management system and 7.4-inch hardened pushrods (from Comp Cams). If you look at any given cam catalog, you will find that the majority of street-oriented cams fall in this range.

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